The only caveat is that it doesn't properly support some of them, I use an auto refresh app on chrome that sends a sound alert and a notification when anything changes on the website, it works perfectly on Chrome but it doesn't seem to work at all with Orion, in my experience as a Mac OS user it seems like if the extension you're trying to use depends on an external configuration windows or webpage it's basically not ready for use, still, hoping they solve it cause I wanna get rid of Chrome!!! Hate how much it tanks my m1 MacBook Air battery.
@@JmbFountain No. I've tried both and ladybird is way superior, it can render some webstes and even google or youtube to a certain degree, Servo can't, also it seems that the project is irrelevant and abandoned.
The problem with WebKit based browsers on Linux is that the WebKit sources are always outdated. First there's Apple only doing irregular updates of the source tree and then there's also the need for toolkits like Qt or GTK to update their WebKit bindings. Security-wise it's a disaster - in comparison to Safari, you're always months behind in updates -.- Heck, not even Trolltech/Qt itself manages to keep its integration of WebEngine (Chromium's browser core) up to date, despite being backed with millions of USD and having tons of staff.
This is exactly why the situation is so terrible. With Mozilla eating its own face, Apple and Google have their own forks of webkit that they use... any webkit based browser is going to be slightly incompatible with everything else. Always 'close' to being usable, but never quite there... Then you have mobile support... which is sorely lacking in choice.
@MrGamelover23 they added an entire terms of service, which has not been a thing there before. They have a tiny user base left, and are quickly pissing them off.
@@slaapliedje Watch Lunduke Journal's take on the Mozilla fiasco and you may understand why I say to Mozilla now -- Go to hell. $6 million salary for a CEO of a freaking browser company is just one of the indigestibles.
I think it is unreasonable to release any software and say "trust us we will open source it later". Browsers are the most vulnerable of security and you want as many eyes as possible in it I don't understand the mentality of trying to perfect things before releasing. You can only perfect it BY releasing it and bringing in the community
Generally speaking, I agree with your statement, but there can be exceptions. For example, when you first want to have independent auditing before you release the project open source, I know that Proton for example is doing this.
@@dominikheinz2297 for proton it doesnt matter as much, since all their closed source code does is handle your already encrypted data, much less risky than a browser
Ok but releasing a half-assed product will get people mad about it. They will say things like "overhyped" and "underwhelming" while completely ignoring the fact that products can get better over time. So I understand why they're trying to "perfect things" before releasing it.
I don't know if you've used Steam on Linux recently, most games Just Work on it due to Valve's contributions to Proton and drivers. It's not the compatibility nightmare it used to be.
Valve themselves have always been good at anti-compete (see their "you cannot charge less than Steam on any other store" clause, for example). Between that, and people religiously supporting the Steam monopoly, I'm sure they will be fine.
@@mopioidThat clause only applies to steam versions if it is a version that doesn't interact with steam in any way you can sell it for less. You can't just sell a steam key for less on a third party market place without also giving the same discount to steam users which is entirely fair
@@mopioid I may be wrong, but I wasn't able to find that clause in my Steamworks agreement, the closest I could find was that I couldn't charge less than on steam when selling *steam keys* for my software. Again, given I'm no lawyer I could be incorrect, but I believe that's a common misconception.
@ Sorry, that wording may not have been helpful - if you do a web search for "valve antitrust" you'll find more on it, since it's currently the subject of a class action.
I personally don’t think the Xbox handheld will be much of a threat. The Xbox brand as a whole has really fallen off this decade and from what we have heard, it doesn’t actually run Xbox games, It’s pretty much just a PC Game Pass handheld.
I'm curious to see if it will allow the installation of emulators (like expected for a handheld PC) or if it will be just a portable device for big gaming stores.
Reminds me of how the character Kagome in the Inuyasha anime had to be renamed in spanish and portuguese language countries (im assuming maybe italian as well?) so she wouldn’t be called “i shit myself” dhdhdj
ScreenSavers ... for old people like me. I like screensavers. Flying Toasters... or Peepers :) That is what I really miss in Wayland! The world needs more Screensavers... and some peace, but its probably easier to have screensavers!
if you can't port it yourself, you should sponsor the projects trying to port it to Wayland. Always better than complaining about something and doing nothing about it.
Starting the news on France rejecting the backdoor thing with "I'm not generally pleased with how the country is doing BUT..." is such a French thing to do, lol. Thanks for the great content!
I'll be honest and say I haven't looked in a few months but, my problem with losing x11 is losing the ability to remote view individual windows from a distant machine on my local machine. I could do this with SSH -X easily. It seems like every time I try to make this work on a new machine with Wayland, it is a royal pain in the behind. I'd like to see you address this in one of your segments. The ability to do something such as software development on a remote machine, like a VM, without having to do a complete remote desktop. I just want a few windows. That's what holds me back and that's what interests me. A very simple way of doing exactly that: SSH to a machine and shoot graphics displays back to my local host easily and without having to reconfigure everything every time.
In my early software development career I was peripherally involved in X11 which was a partnership between MIT and DEC. I worked for DEC. That would have been around 1981. The fact this technology is still in use blows my mind. I don't believe any of us back then thought it would last this long.
6:20 Wayland support in KDE is improving, but it still doesn't handle multi-monitor setups perfectly. It would be awesome if windows could easily span across multiple screens without limitations-hopefully, that's coming soon!
@@huntercz1226 I think we're talking past each other: I mean you have two or more monitors and instead two individual monitors out of them, you create one single "virtual" monitor. This is necessary to run those ultra wide monitors with older hardware, as you normally can't push 7680 × 2160 with 144 Hz through older HDMI/Display port standards. This can also be used to create whole "video walls" where like 16x16 TVs play the same video, but in sections etc.
@@huntercz1226 Yes. I have 3 monitors + a TV and there are some bugs in this setup. 1) Plasmashell crashes if i turn the TV on or off. 2) Scaling issues. The TV is at 200% but the rest are at 100%, yet some things scale to 200% on the monitors.
Hmm. I have a 4K TV and a 1920x1200 monitor in portrait mode. No problems that I've experienced. Certainly nothing that would be different than Windows for instance. Plus, X11 really doesn't like it at all.
0:26 X11 being dropped for plasma 7 is not confirmed, only suggested as a possibility. also NVK is not a replacement for nouveau. terminology is being misused here.
@tracktornator b-b-but the charging port on the side makes it look like a cabled mouse! Who needs a scroll wheel, and who would EVER click both sides of the mouse simultaneously???
I have been using Kagi Ultimate for about half a year now. It has been amazing, and the community and staff are really nice. I can't wait for Orion to come to Linux.
I like that model of pay $50 (or some reasonable amount) annually, for a tool you use everyday, and be incentivised to deliver for the customer rather than find some way to monetize them. Especially if the free version it's fully featured for people not yet in a position to pay.
Tbh doesn't matter much if Orion is closed source, they will probably use Webkitgtk for their browser as it is the only actively maintained library for Linux nowadays. They can contribute for this library.
I really wish people would more frequently better cover the state of wayland, because when people are switching to only wayland, but others are always saying a million things are broken or missing, it's really confusing! Could you cover this topic a bit more in depth?
One thing I hate about KDE wayland is that the touchpad gestures are locked in and cannot be turned off either (so you can't use something like fusuma). Not to mention some gestures are redundant. Besides this I have some issues with stuff like wofi / rofi and keepass autotype (doesn't work), as well as key replacement.
I agree on the touchpad gestures being locked in and not being able to disable them. That being said, KDE Wayland has been very good in my experience apart from that.
Why would Microsoft use a windows interface for there hand held? Most people hate windows UI lol why they don't keep the Xbox UI it's called a Xbox keep the same UI and have Windows desktop as a second option
I am not worried that much about the handheld xbox. It seems late and rushed. It looks more like panic than an actual plan to disrupt the handheld market. When it comes to capitalizing on their brand I would say that steam is even more associated with gaming than microsoft or xbox. Anyway, every once in a while microsoft pulls something like that and it will probably end up next to the zune and windows phone...
Yea, I have the same feeling. Microsoft is getting more and more enshuttificated. Almost every product they release is half ass'ed, filled with ads, not properly functioning and requires paid subscriptions. Microsoft always seems to be in it for the cash grab, while Steam seems to be in it to make an actual good product while also being profitable of course.
There is an explanation on why there's more hours on Steam Deck on 2024 than on 2023. Valve indeed sold more steam decks, more specifically they finally allow to sell Steam Deck in Australia legitimately. Back then, the only way that the Australian market would get their hands on a Steam Deck is through third-parties that have prices so high with no protection from the Australian Consumer Laws.
i am solo game developer, writing custom engine. i use glfw library for portable windowing and input handling. the library is amazing, and does have support for wayland. but oh boy, is wayland broken. switching full screen, broken. moving windows between monitors, broken. decorations, broken. cursors, broken. constraining cursor movement inside window, broken. controlling cursor position from the game, broken. no performance gains. every desktop environment breaks different things, and requires different fixes, which are in clash with each other. it is completely and utterly unusable. i had to purposefully disable wayland support in glfw. i might reconsider it in next decade, maybe. DO NOT REMOVE X11.
NVK might be ready.. gonna be replacing the proprietary drivers when i hear more about this. For the first time, I might consider the open-source NVIDIA drivers. Linux improvements this month are looking very nice. I hope we see more of this over the following year. And as a joke, "is 2025 the year of the Linux desktop?"
Perhaps that year was 2024, mostly due to Valve. Yeah, the Steam Deck is not a Desktop by itself, but hey! The Desktop as we knew it from the past is dying, giving his place to something new as Desktop with the gaming part as being the main attractive to it, so, great!...
Maybe EU officials thanks to the sad clown in the Oval office will find that finally it is not te best idea to impose a 100€ Microsoft on every computer in exchange for a closed OS controlled from the USA. Windows is the only forced linked purchase allowed in my country. Time to apply the law and allow people to refuse the purchase of Windows when they buy a computer. Also time to ban any proprietary software running on any sensitive public computer. Who would like a French army computer being under US private company control ?
Completely right about that about Epiphany at 2:40. Epiphany is simply not great. Some features in Epiphany missing that exist in Chromium are required for better adoption. Files for blocking ads in Webkit content-blocker format is extremely sparse. Proper extension support is still not here. *I cannot count the number of big issues I see with my fingers that hinder this web browser.* With that being said, WebkitGTK also has issues and I think this new browser might also suffer like Epiphany. I do not have much hope for it. Has everyone noticed text anti aliasing is broken? The alpha values are not blended correctly. Every single line of text is more bolder than it should actually be on every website. WebkitGTK has no WebGPU support. WebkitGTK has major performance issues with the Steam website. I could go on further...
6:20 "What's holding people back?" - I don't know about others, but I keep seeing various bug reports and glitches on some systems (screen tearing, monitors with different refresh rates not syncing properly, etc.), so yes it's new & shiny, but until it has the stability of the clunky X11 I don't want to switch
Regarding kwin/x11 losing support - there's no timeline for this: not in Plasma 7 or ever. In Vlad Z.'s post he mentioned that it *might* be up for discussion in a (not even planned) Plasma 7, but no one has any idea what a Plasma 7 may even be about, let alone what it will or won't include. So no - kwin/x11 isn't on the chopping block. It's demise is fortold as much as X11 is: i.e. not forseen and possibly never.
Sure, you can use X11 until the end of times. Same with some people still rocking Windows 7. But the reality is that within the next two years no major distribution will have an X11 Desktop as the default. X11 at this stage is zombie software, not really dead but also definitely not alive. Saying it is not so is cope.
X11 will die, but XWayland will likely stay for a very long time. Simply to cover the niche cases where it's required. Gaming is one of them, but there are others.
@@th3Tyk3 Don't forget that many people (like me) are stuck using X11 because of NVIDIA, you may say "oh, it's long fixed", but everytime i try Wayland on KDE, there's always something weird, like flickering windows, dpi issues, multi-monitor bugs etc.. that makes me switch back to X11 everytime.
@sXpNetworkTv no idea what you are talking about. I'm running CachyOS with KDE on a 4090 with multiple monitors and everything's running smoothly. I use the latest (570) nvidia-open stack. It sounds like you are running outdated drivers.
it would be really funny if valve took a bit out of their war chest and ran insane sales on the steam deck as microsoft launched their handheld. I know they're already not making much on each device but it'd be really funny
A understandable reason I see to keep the source secret untill a predetermined point in the future for a commercial product--or a free product in a commercial landscape--is that they don't want their idea to be stolen before some acceptable sort of affirmation as a leader in what distinguishes them from others. The point is that being open source since the beginning is part of the brand. Anyway, if that is the real reason, I don't want to judge them.
Wayland has worked just fine for me on KDE, i think the times of it being unstable are mostly over. As far as the deck, honestly I think it's good for a few years to come! Admittedly I don't play many new AAA releases, but for someone like me whose most demanding game is Helldivers 2, it has more than enough power for basically my whole library
What's holding ppl back is that when I ask for help, support channels are still insisting I test if X11 also has the issue. I always ask what hot-hey switches and insist if both are worth testing then I should be able to switch seamlessly. So Wayland is not ready because it's missing a hot-key to switch to Xorg if things go bad.
I keep hearing that Wayland is all the way there, and I just don't see it. Every time I use it, a few really persistent things really irritates me and I go back to X11
Seeing that NVK+Zink is gonna be the default for NVIDIA's open source drivers, I'm hoping that Valve fixes the other issues with Steam using it. I heard Zink is better than AMD's own OpenGL drivers, but when I try and use them Steam has a black screen issue where nothing appears (outside of the notification overlay) despite Steam being open.
I have tried Steam on ZINK and it seems to work fine on my RX 6800. Additionally, it seemed to work fine on NVK as well. Maybe it has something to do with GPU generation or mesa version...?
6:15 apart of it WORKING. sure, wayland may me "feature complete", but in a very large number of applications things just don't work properly, making it unusable still.
Wayland is not feature complete. At work, I have 20 machines running a script to automatically resize two windows and put them next to each other on the screen. With Wayland, this is currently impossible.
x11 network transparency is vital in critical business systems -- also, there is a need to support historically significant SW - So, as long as there is Wayland-X maintained... fine.
If Orion for Linux behaves just like the macOS version then this will definitely be my default browser for Linux. In the 10+ years I've been dabbling in Linux, I've never been able to find a browser I've been satisfied with but it looks like this will finally change.
Yeah, but a company which doesn't even have enough confidence in their source code - which is neither rendering nor the javascript engine, so they don't publish the source code is a major red flag.
@@RubenKelevraa couple things here. 1 it is very common for smaller teams to not open source something until a base is built to how they want it built. It takes a LOT of work to manage an open source project, and build something up to where you want it at the same time. So this is not a new practice for a LOT of companies. 2. Ladybird is still a year away for the ALPHAS. Alphas do not mean a good experience for most users. Even Linux users do not always go to alpha builds for a reason. They are buggy.
Wayland is very good, but no working full with wacom, and the performance in some software (for example Blender) is not enough good as X11 (and more if you have an optimus computer). So we (the artist "niche") should go to windows?... It's so sad, because some times I feel that developers forget about the animators, the illustrators, etc, etc that use some Linux (KDE) as operative System
Wayland: "we can't fix X11 without breaking backward compatibility and remove features people maybe use So let's break backward compatibility and make somethig without the features people maybe use." There is not even a reference implementation and everybody does their own partly incompatible thing.
There is no drama. It's just a few guys throwing a tantrum for no reason. The project is perfectly fine changing their license from GPL to MIT, both are very permissive licenses.
@@dominikheinz2297 I know, MIT license for a simple tool isn't that big of a deal, I see it as an "issue" when talking about huge projects, like the Linux Kernel or a DE.
@@dominikheinz2297 If a company use the permissiveness coreutils and doesn't contribute back that isn't a big of a deal, cause it's way simpler and don't have compatibility issues cross system or the possibility of massive improvements outside of a few percentages. Now see what they do BSD, that's a huge project that is barely usable for the end user while profiting billions.
Orion is made by Kagi, a company I wholeheartedly support and willingly pay money to each month. As somebody who isn't a FOSS fanatic, I really don't mind something not being fully open source right out of the gate. You know it's based on webkit, which is Open Source. It's mainly the UI and the additional support for extensions that would be closed source. That being said, I'm not switching off of Firefox (or it's forks) until Ladybird releases.
I think KDE has fixed most of the blockers haven’t they? As a gnome user, I found it pretty frustrating to hear talk about deprecating X11 when the Wayland implementation is still so half baked. Whenever I want to watch an HDR video, I’ve got to go over to KDE. If I wanted VRR in Wayland (something that works perfectly fine in x11). I would have to use KDE. Deprecating X11 makes way more sense in KDE than it does gnome right now.
@6:13 I realize Waylan is the future, but as long as drag and drop using NVIDIA remains broken in multiple apps, X11 is our only usable option. Backporting would simply break X11 anyway, so I'm glad they aren't.
what's holding me back from Wayland is the fact that it literally froze my entire computer when I tried to resize the start menu. a basic action causing a total system lockup. so basically it doesn't work on my nvidia RTX 2070. wake me up when that's fixed...
14:30 I really don‘t think this is the case. For most people (as in 99.9%) of PC gamers, gaming means Steam and then the Steamdeck js a natural step. They don‘t care about the OS, they care about Steam.
I have no problem switching to KDE Plasma 7 with Wayland only and no more X11, accept for the many still very useful projects that still haven't ported to Wayland yet, and likely never will, at least not by their original authors... There are a lot of Dolphin addons and similar that do very specific things... that will become unusable. We already have many that no longer work in Plasma 6 for having been made for Plasma 5 and still not made to work with Plasma 6.
I like Orion on macOS and iOS. It’s not my daily driver but if they do a good job on Linux I might start using them as such. On macOS/iOS I really like Safari, but I hate that it’s so damn “alone” in the browser universe. With Orion also supporting Linux maybe extensions for WebKit based browsers will improve. I’d love to see a FOSS bookmark manager/sync that works between Safari/Orion/FF/Chromium.
Would be great if Valve introduced the Steam equivalent of PlayStation Plus/Game Pass. I personally prefer to purchase things outright (yes, yes a license on Steam, not an actual purchase) but there are times where, kids especially, just want to play a game for a little while and it's not worth paying for. Plus I really want to get rid of having to have a Playstation/Xbox console and instead setting up a Steam Box as a custom console - better spilt screen and a subscription game model are the final two things holding that back.
What many don't realize is that making something open source isn't just about preserving company secrets or waiting until the thing is polished. The biggest challenges come with the community that starts developing around the project. If you're a small dev team, it's impossible to manage your own release timeline and also deal with hundreds of issues and discussions that will start piling up pretty fast. Making something open source for the sake of it is irresponsible if your team isn't equipped to deal with that extra work.
What is important to me (and increasingly many others) with regard to Linux is being able to do LLM work on my Nvidia board. Here is my understanding, which could be very wrong. Additionally, the facts change often. To do LLM work on an Nvidia board with Linux requires Nvidia proprietary drivers and the CUDA library. Nvidia drivers do not support Wayland. I must therefore stick with X11. Keeping up with this is important to me. I would appreciate it if you would report on this. Thank you!
I'm on Wayland (Kubuntu 24.10) and did'nt recognice any problems. I'm content creator, work with OBS and Resolve (ok, here i had to change something because pipewire, but i can't remember what to do... was only a tiny thing). Discord, Rustdesk and all that stuff works fine. Only one Game will not start in Wayland (but in X11). It's Pioneer of Pegonia, but it's still in Beta, therefore i think at the end it will hopefully run under Wayland :)
IMO The only real way to make the browser world completely free from cooperate control is to have at least two browser and search engines that are completely open and are just that. A browser engine and a search engine. Don't make them as part of a ready made browser. Just make the two bases and let the different communities do the rest
@@Kanbei11 I appear to be a decade or two out of date...thank you for correcting me...there was a time that opera was fully independent and one of only two browsers that were 100% compliant, back when javascript was still "new" and everyone had their own distinct implementation... shortly after the death of netscape that bled life into mozilla's code. May as well just use lynx again
![BRASIL vs. COLOMBIA [2-1] | RESUMEN | ELIMINATORIAS SUDAMERICANAS | FECHA 13](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/4Dr5PPhgoas/mqdefault.jpg)
Download the free Linux Enterprise report: tuxcare.com/downloadables/enterprise-linux-opensource-landscape-report/?The%20Linux%20Experiment&
"It supports both Chrome and Firefox extensions"
That is the biggest selling point I've seen for a browser.
That, combined with a few modern browser features, will easily make it the browser to go.
The only caveat is that it doesn't properly support some of them, I use an auto refresh app on chrome that sends a sound alert and a notification when anything changes on the website, it works perfectly on Chrome but it doesn't seem to work at all with Orion, in my experience as a Mac OS user it seems like if the extension you're trying to use depends on an external configuration windows or webpage it's basically not ready for use, still, hoping they solve it cause I wanna get rid of Chrome!!! Hate how much it tanks my m1 MacBook Air battery.
Chrome extensions are usually crap now because of MV3.
And Orion is not only closed source, but you also have to pay to be able to use all the features in the browser. 🤡
every browser used to support netscape plugins until google killed it for no apparant reason
Still waiting for Ladybird
You'll be waiting 2 years.
nah, the person running that can't keep their questionable politics out of the project. Servo is significantly further ahead too
@@CabbageBloke That's for Alpha Release, and Alpha Release might not even be usable for browsing normally
@@JmbFountainwhat did they say?
@@JmbFountain No. I've tried both and ladybird is way superior, it can render some webstes and even google or youtube to a certain degree, Servo can't, also it seems that the project is irrelevant and abandoned.
"they say they're working on making [Orion] open source in the future"
then i'll probably look at it in the future
Tit for tat. Sound fair to me.👌
The problem with WebKit based browsers on Linux is that the WebKit sources are always outdated. First there's Apple only doing irregular updates of the source tree and then there's also the need for toolkits like Qt or GTK to update their WebKit bindings. Security-wise it's a disaster - in comparison to Safari, you're always months behind in updates -.-
Heck, not even Trolltech/Qt itself manages to keep its integration of WebEngine (Chromium's browser core) up to date, despite being backed with millions of USD and having tons of staff.
This is exactly why the situation is so terrible. With Mozilla eating its own face, Apple and Google have their own forks of webkit that they use... any webkit based browser is going to be slightly incompatible with everything else. Always 'close' to being usable, but never quite there...
Then you have mobile support... which is sorely lacking in choice.
@@slaapliedjeFirefox on Android with ublock Origin is peak.
@@slaapliedjeMozilla isn't eating its own face, they literally changed nothing but the wording
@MrGamelover23 they added an entire terms of service, which has not been a thing there before. They have a tiny user base left, and are quickly pissing them off.
@@slaapliedje Watch Lunduke Journal's take on the Mozilla fiasco and you may understand why I say to Mozilla now -- Go to hell. $6 million salary for a CEO of a freaking browser company is just one of the indigestibles.
I think it is unreasonable to release any software and say "trust us we will open source it later". Browsers are the most vulnerable of security and you want as many eyes as possible in it
I don't understand the mentality of trying to perfect things before releasing. You can only perfect it BY releasing it and bringing in the community
i guarantee there's some clueless investor or two holding it up, terrified of losing their "trade secrets"
Generally speaking, I agree with your statement, but there can be exceptions. For example, when you first want to have independent auditing before you release the project open source, I know that Proton for example is doing this.
@@dominikheinz2297 for proton it doesnt matter as much, since all their closed source code does is handle your already encrypted data, much less risky than a browser
Ok but releasing a half-assed product will get people mad about it. They will say things like "overhyped" and "underwhelming" while completely ignoring the fact that products can get better over time. So I understand why they're trying to "perfect things" before releasing it.
Hard to trust an American company these days, closed source "trust me bro" ehhh, nah.
I don't know if you've used Steam on Linux recently, most games Just Work on it due to Valve's contributions to Proton and drivers. It's not the compatibility nightmare it used to be.
I don't even have Linux, I just enjoy listening to you.
I would love to see a webkit based browser make it big, so tired of worrying about what will happen to the Firefox forks if Mozilla kicks the bucket.
Microsoft fighting the existence of competition as usual. Valve better be on their A game.
Valve is getting ready to do absolutely nothing at all and win after their competitor implodes, as they did many times in the past
Valve themselves have always been good at anti-compete (see their "you cannot charge less than Steam on any other store" clause, for example). Between that, and people religiously supporting the Steam monopoly, I'm sure they will be fine.
@@mopioidThat clause only applies to steam versions if it is a version that doesn't interact with steam in any way you can sell it for less. You can't just sell a steam key for less on a third party market place without also giving the same discount to steam users which is entirely fair
@@mopioid I may be wrong, but I wasn't able to find that clause in my Steamworks agreement, the closest I could find was that I couldn't charge less than on steam when selling *steam keys* for my software. Again, given I'm no lawyer I could be incorrect, but I believe that's a common misconception.
@ Sorry, that wording may not have been helpful - if you do a web search for "valve antitrust" you'll find more on it, since it's currently the subject of a class action.
I personally don’t think the Xbox handheld will be much of a threat. The Xbox brand as a whole has really fallen off this decade and from what we have heard, it doesn’t actually run Xbox games, It’s pretty much just a PC Game Pass handheld.
They lost me at “running on windows”. Yeah, no thanks.
I agree. Tho I find it just sad that the 2013 Xbox One reveal is still hitting so hard 12 years later. They’ll never live that one down
If it has Gamepass, which it will, it will have Xbox games.
@@somegeezer4058 The point is "Xbox games" aren't a thing anymore.
I'm curious to see if it will allow the installation of emulators (like expected for a handheld PC) or if it will be just a portable device for big gaming stores.
Kagi sounds exactly like “you shit” in Italian. LMAO.
Reminds me of how the character Kagome in the Inuyasha anime had to be renamed in spanish and portuguese language countries (im assuming maybe italian as well?) so she wouldn’t be called “i shit myself” dhdhdj
In Brazilian Portuguese too
Interesting, in spanish is like "I shat" lmao
@@Sofia-ts6gy Renamed to Hagome... kinda sounds similar but repair the, well, shit connotations Kagome has
Also it's "key" in Japanese.
ScreenSavers ... for old people like me. I like screensavers. Flying Toasters... or Peepers :)
That is what I really miss in Wayland! The world needs more Screensavers... and some peace, but its probably easier to have screensavers!
does xscreensaver not work via xwayland?
I love screensavers. No one else but us two I guess. Spent weeks trying to get it to work on wayland. Had to switch back to x11, among other reasons.
I personally hate screen savers but i hope we get them since people like you need them 😆
if you can't port it yourself, you should sponsor the projects trying to port it to Wayland. Always better than complaining about something and doing nothing about it.
@@parabolicpanorama It's not that serious, not every announcement comment about what people like has to be a formal feature request.
Thank you for talking about our browser, it's super appreciated! 🙏
Starting the news on France rejecting the backdoor thing with "I'm not generally pleased with how the country is doing BUT..." is such a French thing to do, lol. Thanks for the great content!
I'll be honest and say I haven't looked in a few months but, my problem with losing x11 is losing the ability to remote view individual windows from a distant machine on my local machine. I could do this with SSH -X easily. It seems like every time I try to make this work on a new machine with Wayland, it is a royal pain in the behind. I'd like to see you address this in one of your segments. The ability to do something such as software development on a remote machine, like a VM, without having to do a complete remote desktop. I just want a few windows. That's what holds me back and that's what interests me. A very simple way of doing exactly that: SSH to a machine and shoot graphics displays back to my local host easily and without having to reconfigure everything every time.
In my early software development career I was peripherally involved in X11 which was a partnership between MIT and DEC. I worked for DEC. That would have been around 1981. The fact this technology is still in use blows my mind. I don't believe any of us back then thought it would last this long.
and it still happens to be a better option than Wayland in my experience of using Linux for the past 5 years :)
6:20 Wayland support in KDE is improving, but it still doesn't handle multi-monitor setups perfectly. It would be awesome if windows could easily span across multiple screens without limitations-hopefully, that's coming soon!
I have 2 different monitors and never had any issues. Does this apply to more than 2 monitors? Just curious.
@@huntercz1226 I think we're talking past each other: I mean you have two or more monitors and instead two individual monitors out of them, you create one single "virtual" monitor.
This is necessary to run those ultra wide monitors with older hardware, as you normally can't push 7680 × 2160 with 144 Hz through older HDMI/Display port standards.
This can also be used to create whole "video walls" where like 16x16 TVs play the same video, but in sections etc.
@@huntercz1226 Yes. I have 3 monitors + a TV and there are some bugs in this setup.
1) Plasmashell crashes if i turn the TV on or off.
2) Scaling issues. The TV is at 200% but the rest are at 100%, yet some things scale to 200% on the monitors.
Hmm. I have a 4K TV and a 1920x1200 monitor in portrait mode. No problems that I've experienced. Certainly nothing that would be different than Windows for instance. Plus, X11 really doesn't like it at all.
@BigIUFan I don't think you understand the feature which is missing from KDE/Wayland right now.
0:26 X11 being dropped for plasma 7 is not confirmed, only suggested as a possibility. also NVK is not a replacement for nouveau. terminology is being misused here.
If Windows Phone and the other Microsoft mobile attempts are any indication, the Xbox Handheld will not be a serious competitor.
Microsoft's incompetence at designing a mobile device UI is almost as legendary as Apple's incompetence at designing mice.
@tracktornatorwhat are you on about windows phone had one of the best and most loved mobile userinterfaces of all time
Bear in snow
@tracktornator b-b-but the charging port on the side makes it look like a cabled mouse! Who needs a scroll wheel, and who would EVER click both sides of the mouse simultaneously???
@@kokop1107 except that was actually nokia.
I have been using Kagi Ultimate for about half a year now. It has been amazing, and the community and staff are really nice.
I can't wait for Orion to come to Linux.
Same. Really hoping Orion works out well
I like that model of pay $50 (or some reasonable amount) annually, for a tool you use everyday, and be incentivised to deliver for the customer rather than find some way to monetize them. Especially if the free version it's fully featured for people not yet in a position to pay.
I’ve been pretty happy gaming on Linux for the last 6+ months, and nothing Microsoft has done on Windows gives me any interest in going back.
Same, but I had been doing it on and off for years between going strictly Linux at the start of the Pandemic.
Tbh doesn't matter much if Orion is closed source, they will probably use Webkitgtk for their browser as it is the only actively maintained library for Linux nowadays.
They can contribute for this library.
They have access to what you do and how you do it.
I really wish people would more frequently better cover the state of wayland, because when people are switching to only wayland, but others are always saying a million things are broken or missing, it's really confusing! Could you cover this topic a bit more in depth?
Been on full wayland for a while now, very few issues. The only thing that didn't work was bumblebee for multi gpu. That's all
Firefox pip does not remeber its window postikn and is not on top by default
electron apps on wayland can't be resized normally on gnome in my experience thus far on arch
Mostly "old man yells at sky, while shaking fist". It's fine
@@claybfordworks for me on Fedora+GNOME, although the area that I can click on to resize a window is sometimes way smaller than it should be
One thing I hate about KDE wayland is that the touchpad gestures are locked in and cannot be turned off either (so you can't use something like fusuma). Not to mention some gestures are redundant.
Besides this I have some issues with stuff like wofi / rofi and keepass autotype (doesn't work), as well as key replacement.
Я согласен с тобой, так же раздражает что нельзя изменить жесты и на сенсорном экране
I have a problem with their colour management. It's not as accurate as x11 if I use an icc file.
I agree on the touchpad gestures being locked in and not being able to disable them.
That being said, KDE Wayland has been very good in my experience apart from that.
Why would Microsoft use a windows interface for there hand held? Most people hate windows UI lol why they don't keep the Xbox UI it's called a Xbox keep the same UI and have Windows desktop as a second option
No way that it's going to default to the default Windows UI.
Microsoft's incompetence at designing a mobile device UI is almost as legendary as Apple's incompetence at designing mice.
I am not worried that much about the handheld xbox. It seems late and rushed. It looks more like panic than an actual plan to disrupt the handheld market.
When it comes to capitalizing on their brand I would say that steam is even more associated with gaming than microsoft or xbox.
Anyway, every once in a while microsoft pulls something like that and it will probably end up next to the zune and windows phone...
Yea, I have the same feeling.
Microsoft is getting more and more enshuttificated.
Almost every product they release is half ass'ed, filled with ads, not properly functioning and requires paid subscriptions.
Microsoft always seems to be in it for the cash grab, while Steam seems to be in it to make an actual good product while also being profitable of course.
I’ve been using Orion on my Mac and iPhone for about a year now. Really enjoy it so far. Very excited by the news.
I'm still holding onto my Steam Deck. It's got the touch pads. It's running Linux. Windows 11 was the final straw, I'm not moving back to Windows.
ORION ON LINUX!? THIS IS A DREAM COME TRUE..
There is an explanation on why there's more hours on Steam Deck on 2024 than on 2023. Valve indeed sold more steam decks, more specifically they finally allow to sell Steam Deck in Australia legitimately.
Back then, the only way that the Australian market would get their hands on a Steam Deck is through third-parties that have prices so high with no protection from the Australian Consumer Laws.
I got a second hand one from eBay for a pretty solid price and then like a month later they start selling them in Aus 😭
i am solo game developer, writing custom engine. i use glfw library for portable windowing and input handling. the library is amazing, and does have support for wayland. but oh boy, is wayland broken. switching full screen, broken. moving windows between monitors, broken. decorations, broken. cursors, broken. constraining cursor movement inside window, broken. controlling cursor position from the game, broken. no performance gains. every desktop environment breaks different things, and requires different fixes, which are in clash with each other. it is completely and utterly unusable. i had to purposefully disable wayland support in glfw. i might reconsider it in next decade, maybe. DO NOT REMOVE X11.
NVK might be ready.. gonna be replacing the proprietary drivers when i hear more about this. For the first time, I might consider the open-source NVIDIA drivers. Linux improvements this month are looking very nice. I hope we see more of this over the following year. And as a joke, "is 2025 the year of the Linux desktop?"
Perhaps that year was 2024, mostly due to Valve. Yeah, the Steam Deck is not a Desktop by itself, but hey! The Desktop as we knew it from the past is dying, giving his place to something new as Desktop with the gaming part as being the main attractive to it, so, great!...
Maybe EU officials thanks to the sad clown in the Oval office will find that finally it is not te best idea to impose a 100€ Microsoft on every computer in exchange for a closed OS controlled from the USA. Windows is the only forced linked purchase allowed in my country. Time to apply the law and allow people to refuse the purchase of Windows when they buy a computer. Also time to ban any proprietary software running on any sensitive public computer. Who would like a French army computer being under US private company control ?
I moved to KDE ~1 month ago, been super pleased with it so far. Looking forward to seeing what direction KDE take their DE in going forward.
The most solid option for any type of software often depends on the distro as its maintainers have a preference and helped it run smoothly there.
Completely right about that about Epiphany at 2:40. Epiphany is simply not great. Some features in Epiphany missing that exist in Chromium are required for better adoption. Files for blocking ads in Webkit content-blocker format is extremely sparse. Proper extension support is still not here. *I cannot count the number of big issues I see with my fingers that hinder this web browser.* With that being said, WebkitGTK also has issues and I think this new browser might also suffer like Epiphany. I do not have much hope for it. Has everyone noticed text anti aliasing is broken? The alpha values are not blended correctly. Every single line of text is more bolder than it should actually be on every website. WebkitGTK has no WebGPU support. WebkitGTK has major performance issues with the Steam website. I could go on further...
WE NEED LADYBIRD DEVELOPERS PLEASE 😭
I use Orion on a Mac and it's amazing. I hope it brings the same quality to Linux. Also I'm too waiting for Ladybird!
Yikes...
Same.
@@WolvericCatkin Why yikes?
@@dragonballjiujitsuLadybird has transphobic maintainers at the helm.
6:20 "What's holding people back?" - I don't know about others, but I keep seeing various bug reports and glitches on some systems (screen tearing, monitors with different refresh rates not syncing properly, etc.), so yes it's new & shiny, but until it has the stability of the clunky X11 I don't want to switch
Regarding kwin/x11 losing support - there's no timeline for this: not in Plasma 7 or ever. In Vlad Z.'s post he mentioned that it *might* be up for discussion in a (not even planned) Plasma 7, but no one has any idea what a Plasma 7 may even be about, let alone what it will or won't include.
So no - kwin/x11 isn't on the chopping block. It's demise is fortold as much as X11 is: i.e. not forseen and possibly never.
Sure, you can use X11 until the end of times. Same with some people still rocking Windows 7. But the reality is that within the next two years no major distribution will have an X11 Desktop as the default. X11 at this stage is zombie software, not really dead but also definitely not alive. Saying it is not so is cope.
X11 will die, but XWayland will likely stay for a very long time.
Simply to cover the niche cases where it's required. Gaming is one of them, but there are others.
@@th3Tyk3 Don't forget that many people (like me) are stuck using X11 because of NVIDIA, you may say "oh, it's long fixed", but everytime i try Wayland on KDE, there's always something weird, like flickering windows, dpi issues, multi-monitor bugs etc.. that makes me switch back to X11 everytime.
@sXpNetworkTv no idea what you are talking about. I'm running CachyOS with KDE on a 4090 with multiple monitors and everything's running smoothly. I use the latest (570) nvidia-open stack. It sounds like you are running outdated drivers.
Nice! But no, i'm using the most recent (570) drivers on Arch.
Awesome video! Much appreciated 💜
What is really keeping me from using Wayland is it doesn't remember my session when I restart or log out and in.
i really love this news show!!!
Microsoft's slogan for years seems to have been "Imitate, Assimilate, Devour".
Weird rendering stutters at 11:04
Great video as always!
Thank you for all the Informationen 🙏 Greetings from your neighbour 🤗
it would be really funny if valve took a bit out of their war chest and ran insane sales on the steam deck as microsoft launched their handheld. I know they're already not making much on each device but it'd be really funny
A understandable reason I see to keep the source secret untill a predetermined point in the future for a commercial product--or a free product in a commercial landscape--is that they don't want their idea to be stolen before some acceptable sort of affirmation as a leader in what distinguishes them from others.
The point is that being open source since the beginning is part of the brand.
Anyway, if that is the real reason, I don't want to judge them.
not worried about the Xbox handheld at all, i know they will fuck it up somehow, like limiting it to the microsoft store only or something
Wayland has worked just fine for me on KDE, i think the times of it being unstable are mostly over.
As far as the deck, honestly I think it's good for a few years to come! Admittedly I don't play many new AAA releases, but for someone like me whose most demanding game is Helldivers 2, it has more than enough power for basically my whole library
What's holding ppl back is that when I ask for help, support channels are still insisting I test if X11 also has the issue. I always ask what hot-hey switches and insist if both are worth testing then I should be able to switch seamlessly. So Wayland is not ready because it's missing a hot-key to switch to Xorg if things go bad.
I keep hearing that Wayland is all the way there, and I just don't see it. Every time I use it, a few really persistent things really irritates me and I go back to X11
A new browser? Awesome. And now, allow me to wait until it gets open-sourced and someone makes an independent build. ;)
What a coincidence. I just switched to Kagi a month ago lol.
Thanks Nick.
Seeing that NVK+Zink is gonna be the default for NVIDIA's open source drivers, I'm hoping that Valve fixes the other issues with Steam using it. I heard Zink is better than AMD's own OpenGL drivers, but when I try and use them Steam has a black screen issue where nothing appears (outside of the notification overlay) despite Steam being open.
I have tried Steam on ZINK and it seems to work fine on my RX 6800.
Additionally, it seemed to work fine on NVK as well.
Maybe it has something to do with GPU generation or mesa version...?
Waylands, not wayland.
That is the problem - fragmentation by design
6:15 apart of it WORKING.
sure, wayland may me "feature complete", but in a very large number of applications things just don't work properly, making it unusable still.
Wayland is not feature complete. At work, I have 20 machines running a script to automatically resize two windows and put them next to each other on the screen. With Wayland, this is currently impossible.
Great to see NVK progressing.
Last I heard, Synergy didn't work on Wayland yet; this is the *one* thing that's kept me from switching.
Lots of good news this week... lots of progress in cool projects...
Finally some good french news 🇫🇷🇫🇷!
x11 network transparency is vital in critical business systems -- also, there is a need to support historically significant SW - So, as long as there is Wayland-X maintained... fine.
Yeah, I don't think XWayland is going anywhere.
will this browser support fixed backgrounds in css
If Orion for Linux behaves just like the macOS version then this will definitely be my default browser for Linux.
In the 10+ years I've been dabbling in Linux, I've never been able to find a browser I've been satisfied with but it looks like this will finally change.
Finally I can move away from brave.
Yeah, but a company which doesn't even have enough confidence in their source code - which is neither rendering nor the javascript engine, so they don't publish the source code is a major red flag.
@@RubenKelevraI don't care if they don't open source their stuff, I just want to have a good web browser
@Wkaelx I would recommend waiting for Ladybird. It's basically just a year away for the first alpha builds and coming along nicely :)
@@RubenKelevraa couple things here. 1 it is very common for smaller teams to not open source something until a base is built to how they want it built. It takes a LOT of work to manage an open source project, and build something up to where you want it at the same time. So this is not a new practice for a LOT of companies.
2. Ladybird is still a year away for the ALPHAS. Alphas do not mean a good experience for most users. Even Linux users do not always go to alpha builds for a reason. They are buggy.
The only limitation of Epiphany is that it don't support DRM content, for legal reasons. If GNOM E fixes that, Epiphany will be my browser.
Wayland is very good, but no working full with wacom, and the performance in some software (for example Blender) is not enough good as X11 (and more if you have an optimus computer). So we (the artist "niche") should go to windows?... It's so sad, because some times I feel that developers forget about the animators, the illustrators, etc, etc that use some Linux (KDE) as operative System
they really just said "reducing bloatware" in the same sentence that they said it runs Windows 11
XBOX OS is just windows without a different default shell.
Wayland: "we can't fix X11 without breaking backward compatibility and remove features people maybe use So let's break backward compatibility and make somethig without the features people maybe use."
There is not even a reference implementation and everybody does their own partly incompatible thing.
Could you talk about Uutil's GNU's core utils replacement written in Rust? Also the drama with it's license.
There is no drama. It's just a few guys throwing a tantrum for no reason. The project is perfectly fine changing their license from GPL to MIT, both are very permissive licenses.
@@dominikheinz2297 I know, MIT license for a simple tool isn't that big of a deal, I see it as an "issue" when talking about huge projects, like the Linux Kernel or a DE.
@@Wkaelx How is it okay with a smaller tool, but not with a larger project? Doesnt make sense.
@@dominikheinz2297 If a company use the permissiveness coreutils and doesn't contribute back that isn't a big of a deal, cause it's way simpler and don't have compatibility issues cross system or the possibility of massive improvements outside of a few percentages.
Now see what they do BSD, that's a huge project that is barely usable for the end user while profiting billions.
Orion is made by Kagi, a company I wholeheartedly support and willingly pay money to each month. As somebody who isn't a FOSS fanatic, I really don't mind something not being fully open source right out of the gate. You know it's based on webkit, which is Open Source. It's mainly the UI and the additional support for extensions that would be closed source. That being said, I'm not switching off of Firefox (or it's forks) until Ladybird releases.
I think KDE has fixed most of the blockers haven’t they? As a gnome user, I found it pretty frustrating to hear talk about deprecating X11 when the Wayland implementation is still so half baked. Whenever I want to watch an HDR video, I’ve got to go over to KDE. If I wanted VRR in Wayland (something that works perfectly fine in x11). I would have to use KDE. Deprecating X11 makes way more sense in KDE than it does gnome right now.
@6:13 I realize Waylan is the future, but as long as drag and drop using NVIDIA remains broken in multiple apps, X11 is our only usable option. Backporting would simply break X11 anyway, so I'm glad they aren't.
Orion goes by the “trust me bro” licence!
Imma stick with my Librewolf thank you.
what's holding me back from Wayland is the fact that it literally froze my entire computer when I tried to resize the start menu. a basic action causing a total system lockup. so basically it doesn't work on my nvidia RTX 2070. wake me up when that's fixed...
I’ve been using Orion on OSX for quite a while and I can highly recommend it. I’d definitively use this on Linux
sddm, is that the kde provided login manager? uses Xorg last I checked, how can I change that?
I wonder what that new handheld will open to on startup. A big advantage the steamdeck has is that it opens to steam.
i'd put money on it opening to kde
edit: whoops didn't get to that part of the video and thought this was about the lenovo one
@@LieseFury Imagine the XBOX handheld opens to KDE to fool linux users, then it pulls back to say SIKE, here's WINDOWS 12 with ADS on the DESKTOP!
13:48 Xbox operating system is windows tho, this sentence does not make sense.
Kagi also has a search engine that is an expensive paid subscription. Let that sink before deciding to use their browser.
11:50 I never in my life thought i would say this, but France W
14:30 I really don‘t think this is the case. For most people (as in 99.9%) of PC gamers, gaming means Steam and then the Steamdeck js a natural step. They don‘t care about the OS, they care about Steam.
I have no problem switching to KDE Plasma 7 with Wayland only and no more X11, accept for the many still very useful projects that still haven't ported to Wayland yet, and likely never will, at least not by their original authors... There are a lot of Dolphin addons and similar that do very specific things... that will become unusable.
We already have many that no longer work in Plasma 6 for having been made for Plasma 5 and still not made to work with Plasma 6.
Yippie! I guess switching to linux once this browser leaves beta or alpha with a full release would be alright
I like Orion on macOS and iOS. It’s not my daily driver but if they do a good job on Linux I might start using them as such. On macOS/iOS I really like Safari, but I hate that it’s so damn “alone” in the browser universe. With Orion also supporting Linux maybe extensions for WebKit based browsers will improve. I’d love to see a FOSS bookmark manager/sync that works between Safari/Orion/FF/Chromium.
Would be great if Valve introduced the Steam equivalent of PlayStation Plus/Game Pass. I personally prefer to purchase things outright (yes, yes a license on Steam, not an actual purchase) but there are times where, kids especially, just want to play a game for a little while and it's not worth paying for. Plus I really want to get rid of having to have a Playstation/Xbox console and instead setting up a Steam Box as a custom console - better spilt screen and a subscription game model are the final two things holding that back.
i created a web browsing GUI with the webkit engine using Java SWT in 5 minutes. Does this count as a browser?
What many don't realize is that making something open source isn't just about preserving company secrets or waiting until the thing is polished. The biggest challenges come with the community that starts developing around the project. If you're a small dev team, it's impossible to manage your own release timeline and also deal with hundreds of issues and discussions that will start piling up pretty fast. Making something open source for the sake of it is irresponsible if your team isn't equipped to deal with that extra work.
they better solve window position recovery between session restarts/reboots before kicking out x11 from plasma
I'm hyped about this browser, just to test it and keep it as a 2nd browser
meanwhile me waiting for servo
What is important to me (and increasingly many others) with regard to Linux is being able to do LLM work on my Nvidia board. Here is my understanding, which could be very wrong. Additionally, the facts change often. To do LLM work on an Nvidia board with Linux requires Nvidia proprietary drivers and the CUDA library. Nvidia drivers do not support Wayland. I must therefore stick with X11. Keeping up with this is important to me. I would appreciate it if you would report on this. Thank you!
I'm on Wayland (Kubuntu 24.10) and did'nt recognice any problems. I'm content creator, work with OBS and Resolve (ok, here i had to change something because pipewire, but i can't remember what to do... was only a tiny thing). Discord, Rustdesk and all that stuff works fine. Only one Game will not start in Wayland (but in X11). It's Pioneer of Pegonia, but it's still in Beta, therefore i think at the end it will hopefully run under Wayland :)
IMO The only real way to make the browser world completely free from cooperate control is to have at least two browser and search engines that are completely open and are just that. A browser engine and a search engine. Don't make them as part of a ready made browser. Just make the two bases and let the different communities do the rest
Thanks!
I'd love to hear a deep dive into browsers that includes Opera. Firefox and chromium based or webkit stuff seem to continually omit Opera...
They're not omitting opera. It's written right there: "chromium based"
@@Kanbei11 I appear to be a decade or two out of date...thank you for correcting me...there was a time that opera was fully independent and one of only two browsers that were 100% compliant, back when javascript was still "new" and everyone had their own distinct implementation... shortly after the death of netscape that bled life into mozilla's code. May as well just use lynx again
Opera abandoned the Presto engine in 2013.
Today Opera is just another Chromium-based browser.
I haven't played videogames in ages, but boy, how I wish Valve succeeds!